A couple of months ago, I read an article by Anglo-Saxon Heathen Swain Wodening on the subject of Divine patronage. It was such a beautiful example of a Heathen missing the point, that I saved the link so that when the PBP week for ‘P’ came around, I could comment and that’s just what I’m going to do today. The original article can be found here: http://swainwodening.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/patronage/ and I strongly suggest before reading my piece that folks go there and read Wodening’s thoughts, so you can A) make up your own mind on his article and the topic at hand and B) have the appropriate context with which to read my article here.

First of all, there seems to be an assumption –and this is not just in Wodening’s article, but generally within Heathenry---that ‘patronage’ means focusing one’s attention on one Deity to the exclusion of all others, almost as though it’s some twisted version of monotheism creeping into polytheistic practice. That’s not necessarily the case, no more than having a spouse means you never talk to anyone of the opposite sex again. (Probably a poor analogy but I’m still on my first cup of coffee so y’all are going to have to deal with it).

Then of course, there’s the misguided idea that the purpose of patronage is to extort favors and gifts, or blessings from the Deity in question. Wodening writes in the first two lines of his article: “The idea behind it is that one dedicates one’s self [sic] to a single deity, and seeks special insight, favors, or gifts from them.” This is a common idea in Heathenry that doesn’t just crop up with the concept of patronage, but with the concept of prayer, ritual, and offering in general. There’s an overwhelming idea within the community that the only reason to pray (or do ritual or any other devotionally oriented practice) is to ask for things. There’s not really any community wide comprehension that one can have a relationship, a deeply satisfying, mutually beneficial, and intently engaged relationship that is not based around the need to constantly be making requests. It’s almost as though the dominant trope of Heathen spirituality is an immature one, where the Gods are only there to grant wishes. Anything more, anything approximating a more devotionally aware spirituality is suspect. (I suppose the idea is ‘why pray if you can’t get things? What are these Gods for anyway?’ because of course, it’s all about us and what we can get).

Magnanimously, of course, Wodening allows that there’s nothing wrong with the abovementioned type of attitude toward patronage. Of course, it’s also not what having a Divine patron is all about, which Wodening would know, if he actually had one (which, in his article, he implies he does not). I should mention that I do not fault someone for having or not having a Patron. Whether one does or does not have such a relationship with a Deity or Deities does not, in fact, make one a better or worse Heathen than anyone else. It’s not a matter of personal value or worth, something that I’m going to be coming back to a little later on in this article. I just wanted to get that out of the way now, because I think the assumption that having a Patron somehow makes one “better” is part of the reason that the concept is so problematic amongst Heathens who don’t.

There is an unfortunate idea that crops up in Heathenry again and again (ok, there are a lot of unfortunate ideas that crop up in Heathenry repeatedly, this is just the one I happen to be focusing on today) that the Gods only took an interest in Heathens of the past, kings and heroes and other (to use Wodening’s terminology) “extraordinary” people, of whom there aren’t many running around today. I find it particularly ironic that Wodening specifically notes—before any other descriptive factor-- that to have the attention of a Deity one must be independently wealthy. What a marvelous indicator of character and spiritual excellence. How 20th century. How Protestant.(1)

That’s really part of the problem, you see. So much of contemporary Heathen culture, far from being rooted in anything indigenous, is rooted in a deeply Protestant mindset. When I was doing my first graduate degree, I read a book by Max Weber called “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.” I was expecting to be rather bored, but instead, I was shocked –as the saying goes—to my foundation. What Weber describes in his work was, essentially, what I saw every day within contemporary American Heathenry.(2) While I had long suspected that the high percentage of Heathens having converted from Protestant fundamentalisms might have something to do with certain unfortunate aspects of community attitudes, until I read and studied Weber’s work, beginning with this text, I had no idea of how deeply entrenched the Protestant Weltanschauung was within the contemporary Heathen world.

What does this mean for our discussion here? Well, for starters (and I’ll even itemize it in a list to make things easy):

  • For starters, a high value is placed on finding fulfillment of duty in worldly affairs as the highest form of moral activity (Weber, my paraphrase, p. 40). Involvement and engagement with the world –not a bad thing, in fact, quite a necessary thing—becomes the only acceptable form of religious expression. This consciously and adamantly excludes monasticism, mysticism, and anything approximating direct engagement with the Powers.
  • The more emotional aspects of religious life are viewed with suspicion at best and hostility at worst. Anything which is not placed securely in the mundane world is viewed with suspicion. (Weber, p. 76).
  • A repudiation of anything spiritual (outside of focus on the world), emotional (within the realm of spirituality) and esoteric permeates the religion. This goes hand in hand with a distrust of anything sensual. (Really, have you seen contemporary Heathen aesthetics?). If it involves the body, it’s suspect….(see my article below on ordeal work. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve had Heathens ask me, with some desperation, ‘why does it have to be so body focused’?).
  • A very prosaic rationality stands as the driving force behind both Protestant and Heathen ethics, to a degree that attempts not only to leave no room for Mystery, but to quash and destroy it. Direct engagement with the Powers is no longer viewed as a rational or worthwhile goal.
  • In something almost like a certain twisted Calvinism, there’s an unconscious worry about whether or not one is of the spiritual elect. Of course, no Heathen would phase it that way, but I believe this question of moral, personal, and spiritual value is at the heart of much of the discomfort and controversy of issues like Patronage. After all, this attitude says, if one has a close relationship with a Deity, isn’t that person saying he or she is better than everyone else?
  • A discomfort with religious ceremony, particularly if there are any ecstatic or mystic elements. (Weber, p. 61). This is one of the reasons that early Protestants stripped their churches of anything sensual or lush that spoke to the sensorium.
  • An obsession with rugged individualism and supremacy of personal will. (see Weber, p. 72)
  • A deeply rooted antagonism to anything smacking of aristocracy or the elite. The majority of American Heathens are staunchly working class and for all the talk about the need to be well versed in lore, there is, I believe, a deep distrust of intellectualism and education….we argue lore not like academics but like Baptist bible scholars and there’s a world of difference in critical thinking between the two and that bleeds over into the dominant community dynamic. This, of course, impacts community response to things like patronage, which can be (incorrectly) viewed as a type of spiritual elitism.
  • Finally, to go back to Wodening’s comment on wealth as a sign of Divine favor, nothing could be more Protestant. The idea that one’s state in life is a direct indicator of one’s character and the state of one’s soul is at the core of Weber’s treaties on Protestant ethics and the rise of Capitalism.(3)  



I’m throwing these ideas out as food for thought. I’d like to add to the mix the fact that the secularism of American society is, in reality, deeply Christian. In fact, it’s specifically Protestant.(4) All of these things have seeped into Heathenry from the beginning of its restoration without examination, without conscious awareness. All of it impacts the way a huge swath of American Heathens view aspects of spiritual life and its expression, things like the potential for Patronage.

The real problem is what patronage implies: that a person has a special relationship with a Deity. I think this is, however, yet another area where Wodening’s article misses the mark. He doesn’t seem to clearly differentiate between ‘dedication’ to a Deity and ‘Patronage.” Oh, he notes that he’s dedicated to Woden and Frigga and is quick to point out that much can be gained from working with more than one Deity but he doesn’t clearly delineate the difference between the two facets of practice. he also assumes, incorrectly, (as I’ve already noted) that someone in a Patronage relationship with a Deity will only honor or in his parlance ‘work with’ that Deity, as though Patronage excludes polytheism which is a particularly vexing binary way of viewing things. Only in monotheism does devotion to one God nullify and exclude one’s ability to honor Others. It’s not an ‘either/or.’

The difference between dedication and patronage, by the way, is a rather important one. In dedicating oneself to a Deity or group of Deities, the human being is initiating the dedication. What Wodening doesn’t seem to grasp about Patronage is that it’s not initiated by the human being in question, it’s Deity driven.(5) Use of the term implies that the Deity chose the person, not the other way around, and that is often (incorrectly) taken to imply that such a person is somehow special and particularly deserving of the Deity’s attention. This in fact, is an even bigger issue for most Heathens than the idea of spiritual elitism. In allowing for patronage, one is allowing for the possibility of a Deity driven spirituality. One is allowing for the possibility that the Gods can act directly and indisputably in our lives. One is also allowing for the possibility that They might exert a claim on some but not others, that spirituality is not a completely egalitarian field.(6)

In fact, I think that is my biggest issue with Wodening’s article, not that he finds the concept of patronage problematic, but that he misunderstands from the outset its nature. His article clearly assumes that the impetus for patronage comes from the human end of the equation. No thought appears to be given to what the Deity my want, or even to the possibility that a Deity might initiate such a relationship. Second to this, is the neat dismissal of Deity attention as something given only to the ‘elite.’ This automatically – whether this was the intended effect or not—makes engaged spirituality and devotion something relegated to the purview of specialists.

Notes:

  1. Not to mention the dubious ability of someone who is, by his own words un-extraordinary, to judge and accurately evaluate how extraordinary someone else might be.
  2. I’m only commenting on American Heathenry here.
  3. See “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism” by Max Weber. From this, the Victorians drew their ideas about the deserving and undeserving poor, by the way.
  4. See “Secularisms” by Pellegrini and Jakobsen and “Love the Sin” by the same authors.
  5. Even in relationships of human-human patronage, it is the dominant partner who determines whether or not to assume patronage. One may petition all one likes, but if the dominant partner (in the case of spiritual patronage, the Deity) doesn’t agree and initiate the relationship, it doesn’t exist.
  6. We do so like to invest spiritual attainment with moral and personal value. I do not believe that having the patronage of a Deity has anything to do with one’s personal worth. I think this is a matter of Mystery. I don’t know that there’s any easy answer to “why him and not me?” I do not, however, think it has a thing to do with personal worth, value, or goodness. 


 


Comments

08/28/2012 11:31

"In allowing for patronage, one is allowing for the possibility of a Deity driven spirituality. One is allowing for the possibility that the Gods can act directly and indisputably in our lives."

One is also allowing for the possibility that the gods are independently existing entities. Which SHOULD be a given in polytheism, but sadly is not in many neo-pagan circles. Sometimes, I think all of this just boils down to the fact that pagans are uncomfortable with the idea that the gods are real. And being real, have Their own desires, priorities, etc.

The fact that he insists that someone who is favored by the gods would be independently wealthy shows not only that - as you point out - he is steeped in Protestant values, but that he is completely ignorant of all precedent in the matter. If you look at the lore of ALL polytheistic religions, you will find that gaining a god's attention is not always beneficial in the sense we humans would like. We might get a special ability or power or luck, but we also might suffer a great deal - the gods' priorities are not always consistent with our own. (Not to mention the fact that it may not actually be in one's best interest to get what one desires.)

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08/28/2012 11:36

"A discomfort with religious ceremony, particularly if there are any ecstatic or mystic elements. (Weber, p. 61). This is one of the reasons that early Protestants stripped their churches of anything sensual or lush that spoke to the sensorium."

And exactly why their religion is so empty, and they are so prone to just latch on to moral issues and try to force everyone around them to conform. They deliberately reject all the things that facilitate - in all humans, in any spiritual context - connection with the divine, or altered states of consciousness. We are physical beings, and we experience reality through our senses. Effective ritual will utilize that fact to bring the mind and spirit into alignment with the divine. Without that, you are left with empty words on a page with no deeper understanding, static traditions that are terrified to change in the least bit because there is no ongoing, vibrant communication with the divine to guide them. So they set down rules, and enforce them blindly. That approach will fare no better in a polytheistic system than a monotheistic one.

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08/28/2012 13:08

This article gave me pause.

More than once I have called myself "a child of Loki." I use this phrase because it best describes the sort of feelings I have for him, namely that I love him as I child does their parent. However, when I have to describe what he is to me, I do not call him my spiritual parent. I call Loki my patron. After reading this, I am wondering if that is the right thing to do.

I did not look Loki up in a book and decide I would start worshiping him. He came into my life via my ex-husband's interest, and then wouldn't seem to leave me alone, appearing in journeys, divinations, and the like. I was very uncomfortable with for a long time, as I regarded him as the "Norse Satan." It took quite a bit of research plus over a decade of his persistence for me to agree to let him into my life. After that I became very devoted very quickly and started using the word Patron--but it is a word he has never used or asked me to use.

I am still struggling with how to serve Loki best. For many years I called myself a Norse Pagan, though my spirituality felt very bleak at that time. In some ways I think I went through that time in my life so I could understand where Loki comes from. That said, with the exception of Sigyn, I feel very little inclination to truly know any of the other Norse gods except to know Loki better through them. I would think if he were truly my Patron I would have more feeling for his compatriots.

The concept of Patronage is very complex, even more so than this article allows. You have given me much to think on.

Thank you.

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Heathir
08/28/2012 13:08

I find this post fascinating, especially concerning the points wherein Heathenry has been so heavily influenced by Protestant values and structures.
Interesting, fascinating stuff-- definitely food for thought.

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08/28/2012 13:42

I agree with you that being considered wealthy in our society is not something 'required' to indicate a god's favor. The gods have their own agendas. From the point of view of immortal beings who know all of human history and can see the whole world, America's 'poor' live like kings. Society considers me 'poor' based on income. I have no security on paying my bills. I struggle to pay for things that our society considers necessary, such as electricity, running water, gas, modern medical care, that the greatest kings of history did not have. Owning a pair of glasses and a shelf full of books makes me wealthy from the point of view of human history. I really don't think the gods care whether I have huge sums of money. They save my life when it needs saving, and that's extraordinary enough for any lifetime. When Thor wants me to have food, he blesses me with rain. If I fail to use that rain to produce vegetables that I can eat, that's not the god's fault. If I were wealthy, I wouldn't have the need to keep producing books and other things I can sell for money, so perhaps I would not serve them as well if I were rich.

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08/28/2012 17:25

That's a great point, that what we consider poor would have been luxurious in any earlier time (and still is, in many parts of the world).

It's also a good point that sometimes wealth doesn't actually help us serve Them, for a variety of reasons. At the very least, it can be a huge distraction. While I may hope to someday be free of a job (though it's doubtful it will happen), I don't really need to be rich, and prefer to live a simple life and devote my energy to the gods.

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08/28/2012 14:20

This is an absolute nail on the head! And, on a side note, the same Protestant mentality helps to explain why some heathens have a problem with worshiping Loki. Namely the binary thinking of good and bad in strict terms of black and white and the notion that divinity is defined on moral grounds.

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Aelfward
08/29/2012 20:37

It may be too simplistic to simply associate Protestatism with the disfavor of Loki by many heathens. Many folks that I know hold a stance "Why should I support a being who helps brings about the death of the gods?" Simply pragmatic thinking versus binary belief. Evil is anything that would harm one's gods, family, friends, life, etc.

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08/28/2012 14:55

I am sorry about the earlier partial comment. I was working on the netbook, and hit the wrong key, and it submitted. Anyway, this is a very well written response to my post, but I think you read some things into my post that were not there. Having a god or goddess as a patron is to state that deity chose you to focus their attention on. It is quite different from dedicating one's self to a deity in that patronage is deity initiated while dedication is mortal initiated. That said, I simply do not see anyone that appears to have a god or a goddess as a patron in today's world for the reasons stated in my post. However, one thing you seem to have focused on, and this is where I think you misunderstood what I was saying is the idea that I thought to have a deity as a patron you would be independently wealthy. I did not say that. What I said was, "They would be independently wealthy, and if not, they would at least be able to support themselves well." That is to say, someone with a deity as a patron would be able to support themselves. I do not think a deity would let someone they have chosen go hungry. On the other hand, I do not think that if someone is not independently wealthy that necessarily excludes them from having a deity as a patron. I do think that IF someone is independently wealthy that could be an indicator of whether or not one has been chosen. It is not required though, and is not the only one indicator one has been chosen in my mind. There are many things folks might be gifted with to show they have somehow been chosen like an exceptional talent of some sort such as a good singing voice for example. Having a personal relationship with a deity though does not mean one has been chosen. That can come as easily from dedicating one's self to a deity, and indeed what is going on with folks that feel they have personal relationships with deities. I do not think in this modern era a god or goddess has chosen anyone to have a personal relationship with. As I state in my post, it would be apparent to all if they had.

As to the idea that to have a relationship with a deity one must be getting things, well, this is largely how making offerings works. We give gifts to the gods and goddesses in the hope they will give gifts in return. “Aye a gift always calls for a gain," it says in the Havamal. The problem most folks think of is that those gifts are physical. Indeed, some may be of another variety. Talents, spiritual enlightenment, mental well being are all non-physical gifts the gods and goddesses may grant us. There are many others. You seem to have made the false assumption that all Heathens including me think gifts from the gods must be physical. That simply is not true. Part of any relationship is to give and to take. Giving may be as simple as saying something reassuring at the right time. Taking would be the willingness to accept the good thing being said.

Finally, I must disagree with your idea that many Protestant ideas form a part of Heathenry. First off, while " finding fulfillment of duty in worldly affairs as the highest form of moral activity" is perhaps important it is not the most important. One can not lead a moral life without also making offerings to the gods and ancestors i,e, interacting with them. I think this is the common view amongst Anglo-Saxon Heathens. Second, I do not think there is an innate distrust of anything spiritual, emotional, and esoteric amongst all Heathens. There are some of which this is true, largely amongst the Asatruar, but I have found many willing to listen to the experiences of others with the gods and goddesses. On ASHmail, a discussion group for Anglo-Saxon Heathens we are often exchanging tales of our experiences with the deities not as much is known about. Similarly, I would not say that engagement with the deities is not seen as rational or worthwhile. The very act of making an offering is engaging a deity or deities, and this forms the basis of almost all of Heathenry. Too, as I said on ASHmail we are often exchanging information gleaned from divine interactions. Then again, I do have to concede that there are those within Heathenry that do not believe direct engagement is possible. Third, I have never seen a Heathen worry about whether they are a part of the spiritual elect. They may believe no one else is, but they certainly do not worry if they are not. In their mindsets, all are equal which is not quite the same thing as saying they worry about whether they are part of the spiritual elect. Of course, I may not know as I am Theodish, and we believe there is a spiritual elect, and I am content not to be a part of it. As for "A deeply rooted antagonism to anything smacking of aristocracy or the elite," you are forgetting Theodism, where there are social classes. Granted, amongst the vast majority of Heathenry this is true, but it is not true for all.

Even though, I disagree with parts of it, it is a very well written piece, and gives plenty for

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Galina
08/28/2012 15:02

I appreciate your responding, Swain. I've said my piece in my article. You and I obviously disagree about the nature of Deity-human relationships. readers can check out both our articles and make their own determination. We've a good, nuanced argument here.

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08/28/2012 15:25

Yes, I do think it is clear that we do disagree about relationships between the gods and goddesses and we mere mortals. I would like to point out though as one final thing that dedication alone can be very fulfilling. Whether one has a patron or not one can still have a fulfilling experience in the worship of the gods.

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Galina
08/28/2012 15:28

re. dedication: of course, one would think that obvious. Good to have it pointed out though, for those for whom it is not.

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liza
08/28/2012 21:38

I did read both articles, and thank you Swain for continuing to engage in this conversation. I do have a question though, so I hope you still stick around...

As you have clearly stated, and then reiterated, that you do not think the Gods and Goddesses choose folks in this day and age to focus attention on. Rather they are likely focused more on community then individuals.

Now, my personal opinion is that societies change, more readily, when individuals change the from the inside, instead of outside in (so I certainly have a bias there), but if the Gods are not engaging individuals, how do you account for the many stories from people who say that they ran/bucked/tried to ignore/bargain away from the God they now consider a patron? Some of those people only learned the identity of the entity pursuing them some time later.

There is no denying that there is a growing number of people who feel that this has happened to them (and they may/not embrace said Deity later). If the Gods are not seeking people out, what is happening?

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08/29/2012 09:29

It is not so much that I do not think the gods and goddess do not interact with us, as I do not think they choose people for special treatment. I am dedicated to Woden and Frige for example. I have had experiences that can only be explained by seeing the one or both of them intervening in my life. However, I do not see this as special treatment. Indeed, I think they do it for all of their followers. However, what I do not see happening is people being chosen for special treatment. That is I do not see other folks having relationships with the gods and goddesses that everyone cannot have if they just dedicate the time. I hope that makes sense.

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liza
08/29/2012 10:00

Thanks for staying engaged! Ok, so there are times when you do believe that the Gods/Goddesses have intervened in an individuals life? I wasn't sure by something else you said...

This is something... that I have struggled to wrap my brain around. The special but not...

I *do* think that there are certain people who have "easier," "more direct" contact with the Gods, and I do think that this makes them special (in much the same way that I wouldn't trust me to build a house makes a house builder special)... anyone COULD develop the skills to be a house builder, but some folks would be more naturally adept at it.

I do think the Gods intervene, and I do think that there are times, for whatever reason They initiate the contact. I also, though believe that there are people who initiate the contact and then also develop and build very close realtionships with the Gods. Mortal initiated vs Divine initiated.

However, my question is, if the Gods aren't seeking people out sometimes (Divine initiated), is there a way to explain the numerous stories of people who were doing one thing, perhaps with a different God entirely, or even within a different spiritual framework, who then suddenly find themselves face to face with one of the Norse Gods, who is not subtle about wanting their attention? If that isn't Divine initiated, what is it? (even if that person later goes on to open up to a working/closer/different relationship with that God)

08/29/2012 10:49

liza,

I do think there are times the gods intervene in our lives, give us a nudge in the right direction, or gift us in some way. This happens to nearly every Heathen if they are paying attention. What I am saying is I have not seen anyone in modern times along the lines of Sigurd or Starkad, someone whose gifts (and curses as well) place them apart from others. I guess we may be arguing terminology here to a degree as we do agree on some points,

Christine
08/29/2012 07:15

I really like the couple of posts I've seen lately -- including the one on belief from Sannion that he said you encouraged him to write -- unpacking pervasive Protestant attitudes in the Pagan community. I think there's material for a book there, even. Your post here illustrates how difficult it is to unearth the foundations of one's worldview and change them, and how rudimentary many of our tools for doing so are. Wasn't it Audre Lorde who said, "The Master's tools will never dismantle the Master's house"? We have to go outside the Protestant American context to find those tools, all the while knowing that we are continually being shaped by it.

I'd take minor issue to some of the characterizations of Protestantism here, though, just because one has to be clear which Protestants Weber was talking about. He was not talking about charismatic or Pentacostal evangelicals, from which I think we can learn a great deal about devotion. Nor was he talking about the Protestant intellectual tradition from which historical biblical criticism arose -- he was more interested in the anti-intellectual threads. In looking at our cultural context, I think it's important to retain those aspects that are good and useful to us and be careful not to jettison concepts or practices simply on the basis that they appear in a religious tradition we dislike.

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08/29/2012 08:10

Also, on the subject of being chosen: Yes, it does mean one is 'special' but let's remember how this word is used in the public school system -- it does not necessarily mean something good. It took me many years to realize why Freya chose me. I believe it was because of sacred wounds. The same reason why I might call a one-eyed cat an Odin's Cat. It is marked as special to Odin by its sacred wound. He sees from its one eye because it has a special affinity with his energy.

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08/29/2012 09:20

Good point. What makes one special can have just as many negative aspects as positive ones. But beyond that, I would like to know, what the hell is wrong with being special? Why are we falling over ourselves all the time to declare that we're NOT special, that no one is special, that everyone is exactly equal? It's patently untrue. It doesn't mean that everyone shouldn't be treated fairly or have the same rights - of course they should - but tolerance does not require uniformity. Just as some people are gifted with athletic or artistic talent, some people are wired to hear the gods, or put in the work to have very close relationships with them. Yes, that's special. So are many other qualities. Instead of making sure no one is offended by the suggestion that anyone else is special, we should be encouraging everyone to discover and pursue what makes *them* special.

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Galina
08/29/2012 08:49

You're absolutely right. I had intended to put a footnote into that effect (that Weber wasn't discussing Pentecostals and charismatics) but I got distracted and forgot. I'm glad you pointed it out!

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Liam
08/29/2012 10:40

I think this was a very interesting post, but what really makes it unique in my opinion is that two people disagreed online and conversed in the comment section, but neither they nor anyone else acted like an asshole. This is a proud day for the internet.

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liza
08/29/2012 11:07

No more "reply" buttons-have to start a new line :)

You said, "Use of the term implies that the deity chose the person, that that person is somehow special and deserving of the deity’s attention."

What if that person was chosen, simply because they were open-or a myriad of reasons we would never come to find out? I don't know that a God's attention needs to have anything to do with being deserving... and maybe it isn't something we would ever see in that person.

I am just trying to figure out why it is so difficult to believe? Sometimes folks do things, and have influence in a thousand different subtle ways. Sometimes what people do/influence only becomes known after they die (think of the great artists of the world who die impoverished, but in hindsight have changed the culture of art).

I do fully believe that there are folks who have a fulfilling, honorable life, who have chosen to honor one or more of the Gods and Goddesses, ancestors, and wights. But I also believe that there are people who have had one or more of the Gods come knocking, over turn that person's life and initiate that connection.

What I don't get is why it is something that is difficult to believe happens, especially when there are so many stories of it. Do you think those folks (who in different terms would often be described like monastics or mystics) are not having valid experiences? Or do you think the experiences are real-but the wording is the problem? if it is an issue of wording, what word would you use, for folks who are adamant that they were *not*seeking out attention, or dedication to that God (or in some cases any God) previously?

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08/29/2012 16:14

Iiza, I think you are missing what I am saying. Instead of repeating things here, I will refer you to a blog post I wrote today. It should answer your questions. You can read it at: http://swainwodening.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/patronage-again/ I think it is entirely possible that the gods communicate with us and do things for us. I simply do not believe because that happens it means one has been chosen by a deity in the way Starkad was for example.

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Galina
08/29/2012 16:17

and that is the essential difference between our POVs. I very much DO believe the Gods choose people, sometimes consensually, sometimes non-consensually with all that entails and I believe They do so for Their own reasons.

Nor do i necessarily think the "heroes" of the Sagas are the best examples of lives lived in service to the Gods. Are they exciting lives? yes, but again, perhaps not the best example of devoted ones.

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08/29/2012 17:01

Galina, I think it is possible for the gods to choose people. I just do not think they have in the modern era. Part of my problem with the whole issue is you have a few people running around saying I was chosen by such and such deity. Then you meet them, and you can sense nothing of the sort. You get to know them better, and you KNOW that is not the case. There are folks that I could probably be forced to admit were perhaps chosen by the gods. But these very same people are the ones that make no such claims. I guess you could say I am jaded when it comes to claims that a deity has chosen someone so I would rather think it has not come to pass in the modern day. I could argue that I was chosen as Woden appeared to me in a dream when I first became Heathen, but I make no such claim as I do not feel he has given me anymore special treatment than the next guy. I just think the gods and goddesses come to all of us that are open to it at times. I do not think it is anything special they do, and I do not think when they do come to someone it means they were somehow chosen; inspired maybe, but not chosen. Maybe I am wrong, who knows?

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08/30/2012 03:32

I'm gonna take what Galina said and add my own two cents.

The heroes of the Sagas and eddic lays are described in those tales because their lives are exciting, i.e., they make great story material. Others with less exciting lives, less war-deeds, or lacking episodes that were either dramatic or fit to be told in a king's hall would not feature in those tales. To assume that patronage is restricted to the "role-models" given the lore is to, again, fail to understand what the lore is. It's not a full record of ancient life, it's not even a full mythological corpus, and it most certainly is not a complete revealed truth that contains all the guidelines on how to relate with the Gods. Most of it was not even written down by heathens themselves and most of what was put in writing was motivated by the agenda of a military and/or political elite.

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08/30/2012 03:33

I'm gonna take what Galina said and add my own two cents.

The heroes of the Sagas and eddic lays are described in those tales because their lives are exciting, i.e., they make great story material. Others with less exciting lives, less war-deeds, or lacking episodes that were either dramatic or fit to be told in a king's hall would not feature in those tales. To assume that patronage is restricted to the "role-models" given the lore is to, again, fail to understand what the lore is. It's not a full record of ancient life, it's not even a full mythological corpus, and it most certainly is not a complete revealed truth that contains all the guidelines on how to relate with the Gods. Most of it was not even written down by heathens themselves and most of what was put into writing was motivated by the agenda of a military and/or political elite.

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08/29/2012 16:18

liza,

I just realized my post won't fully answer your question. For those that have had the gods or goddesses come to them, and point them in the right direction I would say they were inspired by the deity. I do not see this as anything special though. It is fairly common place enough. I just feel that to call a deity your patron, it must be something knock your socks off, there is no question about it type situation,not just for the person, but everyone that meets them.

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liza
08/29/2012 20:23

I am sure I was/am missing some of what you are saying, but I think we also have a divergence in belief in some areas. It's just taken me some time to figure out where some of those differences are because I wanted to make sure, as best as I could, that I was catching the sometimes subtle differences.

I very much believe that the God/desses can/do interact with humanity (we agree), that this is not necessarily an uncommon occurrence -in that many (if not all) Heathens with at least some reflection could see this (we agree), and in so much that devotion/dedication (mortal initiated) can be very fulfilling (we agree).

That said, I very much agree that some people (though not all) have been approached by the Gods in a very real, sometimes very tangible way. I think that >is< special, but I don't necessarily think it makes someone better/more adept/higher than etc than someone who has not had this experience. In fact, I think many of those folks see it more as a burden than a blessing. I also think that for some (all?? not sure, so lets go with most) of those folks, their interaction is frequent with the Gods-though, not always divine initiated at that point. For some that might be weekly, or daily, or multiple times a day (which is where dedication/devotion cross over into this), I don't know. I do however believe that they are having very real experiences with the Gods. So, this is where I believe we begin to diverge in our agreement.

What I am truly trying to understand through this is if you don't believe that there are some people who have had these/are having these experiences, how do we explain the growing number of people who report having very real (and again sometimes very tangible) relationships/interactions?

I have no idea why some people do, and some people don't. And, as I said I don't think it is (necessarily) a blessing, as much as it is a difference. I wonder if there are more folks who have these experiences and don't talk about them because they are afraid of being ridiculed, or if there are more folks outside of Heathen circles having experiences with the Norse Gods, because the general culture has been that it doesn't happen anymore, so it's "harder" to get through to Heathens??

Those are just thoughts in my head at this point though. I think about the lore, and those were only the truly exceptional stories that were written down. Isn't it possible that there were other, less "remarkable"people who had such intimate experiences? They just never made the history books as it were, so we have no record of Ingrid the washing well women with a very strong connection to Frigga?

I am just having a hard time understanding why it is such a stretch to believe that there are relationships (today) like this that are truly valid. And again, I do want to thank you for staying engaged in this discussion, because I am, actually trying to understand your view point.

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08/30/2012 06:54

I want to thank Galina and Swain for showing us how to discuss different points of view in Heathenry, respectfully. I understand that you both are very passionate individuals with different views, it's really instructive for us younger (in terms of time as) Heathens on how to have different ideas, but discuss with honor.

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08/30/2012 09:14

I would agree with the sentiment that drives Swain's posts, certainly. Any of us who have been heathens for any length of time have grown tired of all of Odin/Loki/Thor/Hel's special snowflakes who have been given UPG which must be taken as instant gospel (not our religion), even when they conflict utterly with the lore that represents the shared understanding of hundreds of tribes over centuries of interaction with our gods and ancestors.

Interaction with the gods is probably more common now than before, as our ancestors were raised in the folkway, and did not need the same level of guidance and instruction, being heirs to an intact tradition. I (personal opinion-not doctrine, I am not the bloody Asa-pope) believe this denotes a need for remedial guidance, not an exalted status. When we get it right, we need the least guidance, when we are in danger of really screwing up beyond our ability to fix, they give us a spiritual "clue by four" to the back of the head to stop us at cliff's edge.

For the record, yes I do have a history with Odin's tutelage, and it has lead me to broaden my practice to the other gods, and more importantly to focus on the wights and ancestors first; as indeed our ancestral practice was. God central is one of the legacies of Christianity.

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Galina
08/30/2012 09:24

i actually think better we're doing things the 'more right' we're doing it, the more we're going to see people called and claimed by the Gods. It's part of a healthy, engaged spirituality, not an aberration.

I think the reason we're not seeing more of it in contemporary heathenry is that so few contemporary heathens are devotionally aware...and that's probably the kindest thing I can say about the state of the community.

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liza
08/30/2012 09:45

A couple of things
1st: yes! I agree I am happy that there is a discussion occurring where it doesn’t devolve into foolishness and nonsense, even when there are (obviously) two different opinions at play. Which is why I have continued to ask questions, this opportunity is, sadly, rare.

2nd: “I guess you could say I am jaded when it comes to claims that a deity has chosen someone so I would rather think it has not come to pass in the modern day”
Well… fair enough.
I totally can understand when you hear something over and over and you think the person saying it is crazy, wrong, touched in the head, mislead or whatever else-you (humans, not necessarily you personally, but in general) we see folks making those claims through that filter first. Sadly though, that means we end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and it doesn’t leave room for there to be people having real experiences then, which to me is incredible sad. Now, that said, I also think that having a discerning eye with EVERYONE is a good idea-some people may keep their relationships under wraps, like I said, for fear of ridicule, or because they are still trying to sort out what the F is going on. Some may be in deep denial themselves!

3rd: “I just think the gods and goddesses come to all of us that are open to it at times. I do not think it is anything special they do, and I do not think when they do come to someone it means they were somehow chosen; inspired maybe, but not chosen. Maybe I am wrong, who knows?”
Also fair
I >do< think the Gods come to everyone who is open as well. I think they They come in different ways to different people, and that it has nothing to do with a person’s inherent “worthiness” of attention. I also think as people become more open to the concept, more open about talking about it, we will hear more stories about this from folks who are not, in any other way, seen as loopy. **g**

4th (John): “ (personal opinion-not doctrine, I am not the bloody Asa-pope) believe this denotes a need for remedial guidance, not an exalted status.”
(Asa-Pop-**g** made me giggle)I guess this is where being disconnected from a larger, closer, physical kindred helps me here. The very few people I know who would claim a God/dess as a patron do >not< consider themselves exalted. Involved in a special (as in different) role than others but not that they themselves are worthy of more… whatever because of the relationship. I would actually say I think they would rather people focus of the God they are in relationship with than with the human.

5th: I truly HOPE we see more people engaged with the Gods, with their ancestors, with the wights. I truly hope we see more people more engaged in their own practice (whatever that is) and deepening their connections spiritually. I don’t know how to heal that, but I hope it is something we see more and more of. But that is my opinion.

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08/30/2012 10:35

I am taking myself out of this conversation, It has been a civil one and therefore quite pleasant, but it appears to be getting nowhere. There are two things I think we disagree on: 1) Whether or no one can be chosen by the gods or whether they are simply inspired at times. 2) The frequency of the gods' interactions with us. And I think we may be agreeing on many things, but the terminology is getting in the way. I see no way to resolve this, and must conclude we must agree to disagree.

I do want to add that I think specialists like spaworkers can work with the gods, although most I have worked with have tended to work with the ancestors or other wights. I think communication with the gods is a special thing, and that they reserve it for very special times. That is I do not think they make small talk. If you want to contact me, you may do so through my blog, and by all means even if you disagree with me on this topic keep reading it along with Galina's. I am sure there are many other things we can agree on.

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liza
08/30/2012 10:56

Thanks again for staying engaged, and I do think you are correct that there are places where we are going to agree, and others not as much- but for me, it at least gave me a much clearer understanding of what (both of you) were saying/sharing in your blog posts, and helped me to better articulate (for myself) what I think about this topic.

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Galina
09/01/2012 14:56

This has been a good discussion and I want to thank everyone for participating. I too and happy that we all kept it civil. :) It's good to throw ideas back and forth like this.

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Angela
09/02/2012 11:41

I did want to add one thought here. Some gods, or so I've noticed, simply like people. They always have motives for this that or the other, but there seems to be certain gods who like to tap people, to offer patronage, for no other reason than they like the person and they want to spend time with them. Might they have plans and goals for this person? Probably. They are gods; who can really know what they're up to? But they are also individuals who, I think, can offer patronage to someone for something that doesn't come across as earth-shattering, "special", or blessed.

I hope that makes sense. I'm having trouble putting this particular thought into words.

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09/03/2012 04:34

Angela,

I know what you mean and I totally agree. Some gods are more, shall we say, "sociable" and tend to enjoy human affairs. A good Hellenic example of that would be Hermes or the Dioskouri.

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09/10/2012 10:44

Coming late to the party. . . seems like it was a good conversation. :)

Over time, I've come to be surprised in what stark terms people tend to discuss the issue of "patronage" - that one has a patron or does not, that it means x or it does not, etc. It seems very dualistic and often prone to hair-splitting arguments, similar to the question if one is legitimately married or not. Well, IMO at some level it comes down to concordance between the opinions of the beings directly involved, rather than compliance with whatever outside definitional framework happens to be in vogue that day.

I entered mystic practice bound and determined to find a patron, but in my experience as an individual, it's never seemed very *relevant* to the gods Who have chosen to interact with me. Over time I gradually came over to Their point of view. *grin* I have a spectrum of relationships with deities - some simple, some complex; some of long standing, some brief but meaningful; some dominant, and some clearly secondary. To point to any one as a "patron" would be misleading; I've called some such in the past, but was incorrect in doing so. I was too eager for certainty, longing to fit things into tidy boxes and label them. ;)

(This isn't to say some gods don't act as patrons for some people, just that to do so is only one kind of relationship. Why impose a singular relationship style on a polyvalent range of experience?)

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09/17/2012 19:12

Also coming to this late...my apologies--it's interesting stuff, certainly!

An awful lot of people have assumed/do assume that Antinous is my "patron." We do not have such a relationship, and neither of us have applied that terminology to it, ever. Most of the terms used for different human-divine relationships (and the implied hierarchy of them, which many have suggested over the years, and which I've responded negatively to on several occasions) don't really fit what it is I've been doing with Antinous, nor what he and, increasingly, his friends (!) have been doing with me. God-spouse? No. God-slave? No.

(And, as polytheism always likes "more options" as its main option, I think even expanding on the very thorough list that Raven Kaldera gives in <i>Dealing with Deities</i> would be useful!)

I find it a bit strange that in most areas of both practical and theoretical theology, I'm very willing to speculate, to investigate, and to probe for a more nuanced and useful employment of terminology, to the point of very anal hair-splitting (and, my apologies for the image of "anal" and "hair" together there...not intentional!). However, in this particular area of my spiritual life, I'm pretty content to just go "We've got what we've got, whatever it is," and keep going in that vane until something changes or is more purposefully defined. Having a name for it won't really change the way I'm doing it at this point, and likewise I don't think Antinous wants to spend any more time than is necessary in his interactions with me on going "So, what do we call this thing we're doing" when there's far more important work for me to be doing in his service.

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